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And So She Goes
And So She Goes

Episode 14 · 1 year ago

13. Kimberley Martin, NFL Reporter, ESPN

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In an effort to learn how to be a better ally to my black friends, neighbors, and colleagues, I had an open and honest dialogue with my friend Kimberley Martin. Kimberley and I worked together at Yahoo Sports. She recently made the jump to ESPN to cover and write about the NFL. She's a talented journalist, a generous spirit, and an honest human. I wanted to go to her to speak openly about race, social injustice, and how each of us play a part in all of it. The goal of this episode is to encourage you to have your own productive conversations with people you love and and maybe some folks you don't even know. Staying silent has proven to be ineffective and it's time we understand how to better serve and support the black community--our fellow human beings.

Conversations with real women who makesports happen, this is, and so she goes, here's your host, Amanda Borgeous Hay there. Thank you for tuning in,during a time of sadness, of hurt of confusion, of wanting to do more ofhoping for change. This episode is very different from what I usually do andthat's been done on purpose. This is probably the most importantconversation I'll ever record and share with you. You know at first I struggledwith the thought of publishing an episode this week. I've seen a lot ofpeople around me have been promoting silence and I respect those who weredoing that. However, that didn't sit right with me. I feel it's my responsibility to havereal conversations and encourage others to have the same. So that's exactlywhat this is youare about to hear from my friend Kimberley Martin she's, anextremely talented n, fl writer and reporter we worked together at YahooSports and now she's, with ESPN, aside from being an amazing journalist, she'sa great friend, an honest human and a generous spirit. I wanted to go to herfor this episode, because I knew she would be honest with me and share hertrue feelings without holding back I'm not going to outline our chat for you,like, I usually do, because I just want to jump right in the only thing I askis that you listen with an open heart and an open mind here is my chat withESPN NFL reporter Kimberley Martin. He Kimberly. Thank you for joining me.I appreciate you for inviting me. It's been it's been a long time, so I'm gladwe're getting to recommect. Yes, definitely I don't think that either ofUS imagined US reconnecting on a topic like this, but I do appreciate youcoming on. I came to you to talk about what we're going to get into, because Itrust you and I know you'll be real with me, so I do appreciate Um youtaking the time before we jump in. I just want to say that I'm workingtowards understanding how to be better- and I want to use this conversation tohelp others learn how to be better as well. So that being said, thisconversation is not about me Kimberly. I actually want to pass the Mike to you,so if you could share whatever is on your mind, you have the floor. Wi appreciate that Um yo I'll be honest. I've been prettymentally emotionally exhausted, the last weak, in particular, because of what we're seeing play outacross America. I've been frustrated because w theconversations that were highlighting the conversations, the type ofconversations and the topics that people, whether it's sports people,whether it's athletes, whether it's just just people in society in general,those topics that are being discussed are not new topics, so the frustrationlies in feeling like this is not a new conversation to meand I think the frustration stems from wanting to get past. You know certain. You know, like Y, youwan to see progress right, but it feels like wee starting from ground zero. Iwill say I'm also feeling somewhat okay I'll, say, I'm feeling someoneconfused. Sometimes, when I see...

...comments that are made, I I worry that the issues of of Um racial injusticeand the Amad oberate death and the George boy death and the Beyonda tailordeath. You know the reactions to it. Um some of the reactions have been. Thereactions have been mixed, but what concerns me I in this pace in this timeis what concerned me. I think, four years ago, as an NFL reporter, covering Collin Cavernick and watchingthat unfold, I think, were it feels like in this moment we are Um. It feelslike we've come full circle, yet it also feels like a watersed moment inthe country, but what worries me is that the narrative get coocted and twistedagain. So what I mean by that is when we saw the concapinic situation in theFL, that much of the conversation was about him him and the anthem and patriotismand and thinking all cops are evil, and so thatt the anthem and the military and all of that became the topic ofconversation and that's what people were responding to clone behold. Four years later, thesame topics that CON Cathrnick was addressing and speaking up about as part of his protest during thenational anthem. You know those are issues that the current n l players, like the hoards of black people, whitepeople, people are talking about now, so I think I've felt a range of emotions becauseit feels like a new. It feels like things, are different right now, eventhough we're talking about the same thing, so I feel as a black woman insociety, I feel conflicted because, as I said, it seems like okay, this isn'tnew information, but it feels like it's new information. Do you think that we're having the right conversations or the wrongconversations? Or is it really just this? Isn't a newconversation? We shouldn't be treating this like a completely new topic. This has beengoing on for so long. All of a sudden people are their eyes, are opening andand they're realizing. Okay, this needs to change, but for you, what you just said is yes, butthings have needed to change for so long MHM. I think I would challenge people to think about. Why does why does it feel new to them tow what'schanged because the issue of racial oppression, theissue of how black and Brown men and women enlarge feel when it comes to policebutality, those those those sentiments have beenbrought up, you know would houge people who you know their first initialreaction. When calling cappernick NEL DRT Neald, I always get confusedMeltmal Ilik when he took inme during the anthem. You know and then latergave an extensive interview to Steve WICE at the anifal network, explainingwhy he did it. I'm curious why people who had access to his thoughts because they were writtenthere on the screet they were on the...

...screen for you to to read about hisfeelings about Um the systematic oppression of people of color. You knowpolice brutality, wha. Why in that moment, did it not make sense to themor why would they why you know my question to them would be? Why were youso put off by the message as opposed to the form of protest,because what we're seeing now in Minnesota and Atlanta, an La and allthese places and all these cities that are burning the the issues are the same, but theconversation starts to go towards. Well, how can you know what's the point oflooting or what's the point of burning business is like? Why are they doingthat? We need peaceful, peaceful protest and I just go back to. We hadpeaceful protests with Martin Wuthhe King and he was killed. You know what I mean like think aboutthat people right now in twenty twenty are saying: We really need somebodylike Martin Loher, King. Well, guess what we had him. MHMAND America killedhim. So it's for me. The frustration is. The form of protest is what people who don't want toactually focus on the issues that we're talking about. That's what they clingto that's what they then turn their attention to. No reasonable person thinks allcontraved. No reasonable person thinks that Um violence is is is good. Noreasonable person thinks that Um wants to see. Um People lose theirlivelihoods right, but I caution people to not make judgments in this point in time about protestorsand ignore the fact that some of these some of these fires, somsome of thelooting, that's being perpetrated it. There are nonblack people doing it.Some you know out of Baltimore. There were stories about how cops went in andyou know, ended up selling um prescription drugs like back on thestreet after, like protest, you know like, but I feel like we get caught peopleget caught up in focussing on on different aspects of the protestingwithout with thewhile, forgetting the historical contacts of where this frustration this anger. Thisconfusion comes from. This isn't just the result of George Floyd and AmadAveri and bring on a tailor being killed right. This is this is decades this is centuries in the making, and so it's, if you're going to discuss this,you have to be educated about the history. The C you can't leave out thecontext you can't say: Oh George Woy died until black people are looting. Idon't agree with that, because you're missing the whole point of theconverscation, and it's again like I said these aren't new sentiments thatare being raised, no they're not and right now I meanthis. Is this? Is it's sensitive? It's it's hardand having conversations like this are uncomfortable. I think, because a lotof people, maybe they feel like they, don't havethe right things to say: Um Th y they're, Afrai they're, going to saythe wrong thing M. I feel like if we...

...aren't equipped with the empathy andthe knowledge to understand, what's happened in the past and understand howwe can change, then we won't take the action to change Um so for those of uswho, maybe don't feel prepared or don't know how to find the resources to learnabout this and then have these conversations. Where should we start so, I would say start with the Internet. Honestly likeI and- and I don't mean that facetiously I mean like we are at apoint where we are BLESSD and fortunate- that information is at our fingertips.It wasn't like you know it's not like forty years ago. Fifty years ago, we'renot our parents like I it's not our parents' generation, where you know youwere at a library combing through books, or you know what I mean it's like yeahagain, I'm encouraging people sil to read. I'm not saying do not read book, but in all seriousess like I thinkpeople have to get um again. You mention people being afraidor unsure of what to say and how to say it. If they don't feel like they havethe knowledge base to speak authoritatively. I think there'snothing wrong in saying I want to learn. I don't know how my black friends, my my black and Brownfriends, my black and Brown coworkers bosses. You know, like you,know significant others are feeling it's Ok to, it acknowledge, be ignorancte and I don't mean ignorantin a deromatory way. I mean just not knowing, because I don't expect you asAmanda to understand what Um what life is like walking around inBrown skin. I don't expect you to to have any inclination Abe what that islike, but that doesn't mean that Um, you shouldbe. People should feel uncomfortable saying I don't know. Ithink that ne as a reporter, when we you know when we talk to subject in the lockerroom or coaches or whomever we ask questions, because we don't know we askfor insight because we don't know, but we also to do homework. We also do researchlike you literally, could Goo, not you a man but people in General Cou. CouldGoogle anti racism, resources and stuff from podcast to books toarticles are at your disposal? I think in wanting to be an ally, I think themost important thing is aacknowledging the privilege that comes with Um white skins and and m access toresources. You Know Um, whatever your privilege, maybe it couldbe your ski it could. It could be a person' skin. It could be a person'sfinancial situation, um acknowledging privilege at first and then being willing to do the work like. Don't I think sometimes the the frustratingthing is when people say OK, how can I help you? How can I be a resource like? What canI do tell me and on one hand that is, that is a nice gesture, but I you want to see people takeinitiative on their own because it's not up to black people or Brown peopleto fix societal conditions. You know what I mlike it's not like. You wouldn't think to ask: Oh, a woman who's, a victim ofdomestic violence, to make things right...

...and to you know, fix her situation on her own. You knowwhat I mean like righthere y. When women want. You know, women wanted theright to vote and women wanted equal pay. I mean still one equal pay. Um.You need male allies to also acknowledge. Like Oh yeah, this system,the parameters are messed up. This is unfair. How can I help Um, but youwouldn't expect women to then carry the whole burden on themselves and change Osystem that wasn't created by them and and- and you know, keeps them below.Does that make sense like Yah, absolutely absolutely and and t thewomen example? Is I mean we? We both relate to thatobviously we're both women in sports. So if we, if, if there is someone thatneeds something to relate this to for some reason, if they can't understandthere, I mean you just give perfect perfect examples of people who arefeeling oppressed and how the system is broken. We don't go to the oppressed tovix the situation. We Hade to look in the mirror and say: why are thesepeople feeling oppressed? What can I do to make a change? But to that end, it'sit's not enough to say: okay, I'm here, I'm going to help. What can I do whenyou ask, and then you say: Okay, you have to you have to do it like youhave to fe a yeah. You've got to figure out what that means, and it's differentfor everyone Um and, I think, a huge part of whitepeople making a difference is having more educated conversations aboutracism with other White People D, because that's where the problem iswith white pripilege. So if I bring up social injustice to another whiteperson and they they say something that shows you know they don't reallyunderstand. What's going on that's an opportunity for me to ue what I'velearned to educate them have an enlightened conversation to changetheir way of thinking in hopes that it's a chain effect where they thenfeel they can do the same with someone else right exactly. I think one thing it's Multilad, I think, likeyou said, every person, individual black white brown, yellow whateverevery person has to look inward and think, okay. How is it that I? How is it that I can help? What do Iwant to do? To what extent can I go and do I want to go for some people? You know you mention the conversationsbetween white people, some conversations within your own familywith your kids, because one thing I don't know how manywhite people are cognizent of the fact that black parents have conversations withtheir kids about interactions with the police, and I am saying this issomebody who has my. I have cousins younger and older, who are in anforsement. My brother in law is in law enforcementM. my husband's uncle IV in law was in law enforcement. So I, when I speak,it's not from A, I can't say myplease or I'm just youknow. You know black people that, like I support, I support my people, but I'm I'm awareof what's happening around the world andin our country, and I understand th the difficulties, ind conversation and theintricacies of what this huge issue 'cause. It's multilater,it's multiprogue, but it wh, while black people are having conversateblack en the Brown people are having...

...conversations with their kids aboutokay, when you get pulled over like make sure like put your ands on thewheel like make sure you look forward like don't don't move or you know,don't go outside with your Hoo, like with your Hoodie aunt, like don't gooutside with your head coverd, because there could be another Gorg Zimmerman.Don't be you know, don't play with this or don't be outhere. Don't the don't? Have Your pantsaggers don't wear this you know sometimes were where, like your schoolsweatshirt that says, like you know, Syracuse or whatever, or somethingshowing that you are college educated, so you're not athreat. So because people look at you and make a snapjudgment, that's what I mean. Let's be honest: We do that in life all the time.So how do you make yourself seen less threatening? This is a conversationthat black men and Black Women Brown men, rown women have with theirchildren, and I don't know if you know the White Committee is awareof that and so a conversation that they can have is with their own childrenwith their own friends. Because Cadi, you know a lot of people, I'veseen pose say I have to talk to my kids about about Um the dangers out there for black andBrown people, but who's talking to these white kids about not assuming theworst are not acting on whatever fear o whatever like prejice thought. You mayhave you know, and- and I think you have to look at it's difficult becauseI know I remember in college I had one. I had one friend who you know he had acrush on me and he said Yeah. I would love to date. You my B grandparentswould would never go for it though, and I laughed Um, but that's very common. I think we haveto get comfortable with acknowledging whether it's parents, whether it'suncles, aunts, grandparents, you know weare not that far removed from thecivil rights moment. So the those generations who said the nward or orwere prejudice, anst black people or didn't didn't feel like they had issueswith black people, but just didn't want to date them or didn't want inte racialmarriage or people that felt like. Okay, blacks are fine, you know, but I don't want them near me. You know,you know, I'm fine with friends that are black, but that's it. You know,like those generations are still alive. You know like they're your family andyou have to get comfortable with acknowledging that reality, becausethen, once you, when you're able to see it, then you can't look away and youhave to decide what am I going to do? WITHAN information and a lot of timesyou have to get comfortable with losing whether it's followers on social media,whether it's or you know whether it's you know not talking to certain peopleand your family or your friends losing friendships. You know because right now,things are so politically charged, but these are the difficult things. Sothose conversations but also you know, m the go. If, if you feel like you, you want to financially contribute, youknow, there's a Gulf on me page for George Floyd, there's justice forBriana dotword. You know, there's a Gulf on me page for Almad abbery. Thereare websites. If you want to help protesters, you know there are websiteswhere you can donate to community bell funds. You know, there's the Movementfor black lives. That has has information as to how you can getinvolved. If that's what you want to do, Um, but again, I think, as long aswe're doing something and and not just posting black boxes on Instaram or notjust saying racism, you know racism, I...

...sucks and I I'm against Racism Um. Youknow that that it's more than just convenient social media post like ifwe're going to see change happen. It has to be a concerted effort where it'severyone against racist everyone of all colors. You know against races, yeah.Definitely there are several worthy causes, like you said, to tonallydonate too, but to learn from a lot of their websites have resources, and theymight even highlight specific things that you didn't even realize wereproblems. So I am going to outline more again in the outtrow of this episode,but there is the black lives matter foundation, which I think you mentionedin there. That was founded in twenty thirteen in the wake of Travon Martin'smurder, the Loveland Foundation, which is a nonprofit that provides financial assistance to black women and girls.Seeking Mental Health Support There's campaign zero, which is dedicated topolice reform and reducing violence, and then there's the player's coalition,that's founded by inquembld and retired, on a l player and current New OrleansSa Safety, Malcolm Jenkins, and they are working with local and stategovernments to end systematic oppression, and there are so manycharities to donate too. So, if you feel like you do want to make a change,I think that's one of the best ways to do so. UCAN, I also add, don't be. I also want to caution particularlywhite people like not to be Oh, to to not be sensitive when m. If you know they, if you're trying tomake like t some sort of overturn and say like Hey en you reach out to yourfriend or you reach it or you Pol something on titer o, so Sha, meade andyou're like I want to help, how can I help don't be Um alarmed or sensitive anddon't retreat if reactions by some are well? If you don't know by now, whathave you been doing, because you have to almost anticipate the the frustration tied to to thatbecause look how loud to Metho Tome Riceshooting was? You know we have Um Sandra Bland, like Filando castile likelike aut in sterling therehave, been so manyopportunities to check in and open eyes and pay attention to a larger issue at play. So, while it'swhile it's good that that more people are taking are using, their voices also understand that there's frustration in for someblack people who a majority of black people who feel like the conversationis not new. So if you want to help hurry up and catch us, you know like wecan't. We can't Um spend all all of our energy like sort of updating you not you amen,but we can't spend all o our energy trying to distil four hundred years ofoppression into you know like a ten minute conversation or halfhour conversation. The onus is on every person to really Um to be an agent ofpositive change and if the motives are in the right place, then that that sortof frustration that that that may be received Win'tbe, viewed as as likewhat the hell like I'm trying to help like. Why is he or she gettingfrustrated with me? The reaction, hopefully will be. You know what I getit Lik I get it. Ok, I hear what you're saying I'm going to do I'm going to dothe work on my end, but I'm still going...

...to be an active participant in whateverway. That looks. I'm glad you said that, because,especially in today's age, where there are so many social medio trends thatpeople jump on, whether it's something silly like Tik, Tok or huge socialmovement like this and people want to be a part of it and- and I will dogenuinely want to support so I'm not claiming that people are using this toget more attention. But the problem is you ton have to look at it and say: Ok. Is this person posting just becausetheyre entire social group is also posting the samething? Are they doing it because they're, like Oh ell, if I don't post,then people are going to ake them racis or right like it needs to be for theright reason, and I actually had a hard time with us, because I'mnot someone that jumps into the weeds on politics or or big Um big topicswhere, where there are firm opposite sides and when all of this started recently, I I didn't want to jump topost, because I was part of that group where I'm like. I don't want people tothink I'm just posting just to post like I don't. I don't want that to be athing number one number two: am I even educated on this topic enough toexplain how I'm feeling to put it into words, because I know how I feel, butbut what, if, how I feel is based on the white privilege that I grew up inlike I need to educate myself more before I respond before I put mysupport out there in the world. So it's hard because of course we all need tocome together and use our voices, no matter what color we are, but it needsto be genuine and you need to make sure you are doing it in in a way that is to add to the crowd,to make it louder, but not just to say that you are a part of Itmhm if he hasany sems yeah and I would say you know, I'm sure, a lot of players a lot of athletes. A lot of people ingeneral feel very similar to what you feel somelor things to what you justdescribed. I would say even see even you post,even if you would set in a post like I don't even know what to say or how I feel right now,but you know whatever xwisy like even even in a post or a sweet Um. You wouldexplain that you're struggling for words, like Idon't think, there's there's. I don't want people to feel as thoughthey have to get they have to be. You Know College Professor Level Scholars before they can um voice feelings right, um. I think you can do both at the sametime like you can you can say how you're feeling and still be doing the work on the side.You know 'cause if you'R E, if people arewaiting for the perfect words to come up with the perfect sentiment to comeup with the perfectly crafted statement. Tweet, we like the movement, might missyou completely. You don't Inyo Ieaa for sure. You know, there's there's and that's what I mean about. I thinkwe all have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable like we have to like. If, if you were, if you were tosay you know, I don't, I don't even know if, in thismoment my white privilege s is showing- and somebody said to you ye, it isAmanda you meed to check yourself. You might feel like W. Damn I want toretreat like this is not at all like I...

...mest Nob, why diit mean to, but insteadof retreating Um, there are moments for education in all Constructev conversations I thinklike. If, like I like you- and I talking like there are things you know you and yourclose friends like the people that you trust, you know you can say to them, I I haven't been paying attention, butnow I am and I'm doing the work like I'm doing the work, because I wantto be a part of change. I think that sentiment wile, you may not havestarted doing the work. I think just showing people that you are there to support them and that youunderstand and also I think, it's checking privilege in all beingcognizant of privileges, because there are ways in which I'm privileges, evenas a black woman in this country, like there, are ways that I'm privilege I'mblessed to have the job that I do I'm blessed to Ha. You know have our littletwo bedroom Condo, I'm blessed to have my husband Myd. You know there. Thereare blendings that I have Um. You know, but I also can say you knowwhen I'm talking to white female colleagues in the sports world and theytalk about issues affecting women in sports. I sit there and I think tomyself: Do they even realize that my situation is different from theirs as ablack woman, like understanding that there is that that privilege manifests itself inin different ways, and it's not just privileges, an just white skinprivilege can be gender privilege can be if you are a man in a predominantlymale space. That's a former privilege, you know, Um and and all of us sort of checking when our when we actually are themajority and when we're the minority, like, I think it's it's important that that we get again. I keep going back tothe get real comfortable with being uncomfortable, because theseconversations 'cause, if you can't do that the conversations won't happen andthe work can't be done. The actual, meaningful work that I think allreasonable people want to see happen. It won't get done if, if Um, if we're not OK with being told likehey, you got to pick it up. This is not like. You've got to do better. I also think that we need to stop looking at the wordprivilege as something that's offensive, because people get offended when yousay that they're privileged when in reality were all born with specificprivileges. So, as a white person, you are born with white privilege as a man,you are born as a privilege to be a man and and what it takes. Is You just needto be aware that that's what you were born with and you need to figure outhow to how to open your mind, to see how yougrew up differently than other people, no one's offending you by saying youare privileged, and you say, I'm ot privilege. I love everyone, okay cool,but the fact is that you were born with certain privileges that other peoplewere not born with, and you just need to be aware of that and educateyourself right right. One hundred percent can I just say I'm the whiteprivilege thing. I think I think there's a tendency to think. Well, I can't have white privileged because Ididn't grow up with money. I did you know I had to like peoplewill say to me. Like you know, I bet you. My upbringing was was harder thanyours m. So how can I have white...

...privilege? Here's what I say to that every day that I walk out the door. Iam not just kimberly. I know that people first see me as the black persontecember one. So when I go in professional spaces, when I'm sinceI've been hired for internships and jobs, I don't I'm not working strictly for myself,like I every day, I'm aware that I'm an example for people, and particularlywomen, that look like me, so theres there's always been an added pressureto make sure I do the right things make sure I don't mess up. Make sure that ifI have this opportunity that I'd crush it because they may not hire somebody who looks like me if Imet this, U, they may say know what we tried this minority internship. It didnot work. She was a bus like that's it, so there was privilege in walkingaround as just Amanda. There is privilege whenyou look on the news, and you see George Floyd and you just think wow,that's rea. This is really sad. I cannot believe this man died like that, while a lot of blackpeople look at that footage and see themselves, there is privilege- andjust be not even thinking about yourself in connection with anyone elsebeside your immediate family, you know, but I see myself as a reflection and assort of representation of an entire community of black people that I don'teven know, because that is that sort of how society has has shaped it. You knowlike black, like the fact that race is aConstrat. It's a social construct, but but people of color are are constantlyreminded um of how they are different. The fact that being white is the norm.The fact that most even now most magazine covers and t v shows that wereon TV, especially when we were growing up featured people who look nothinglike me, so I think t the privilege isn't justfinancial. The privilege is just being able to to here's the best example fromthis week, privileges being able to watch the news and then turn it off andgo about your day and a d and completely get away. I can tell youright now: Most Black and Brown people in this country were not able to turnoff the T V and completely disconnect that the stuff that we are seeing fromAhmad to Briana to George every time it happens that stays with us. So there isprivilege in not carrying all of that emotional stuff around with you wow. Thank you for saying it that way,because that's extremely eyeopening, because I think that's what a lot of people strugglewith is that and hard thing is, can believe that I don't like you can't really like I'm just trying to sit here andthink like damn like. Yes, that's absolutely whatprivilege is, but it's my first question is, then, how do I get rid ofit like? How do I like Er, like it's such a and again? Thisall goes back to you just having the tough conversations to be aware. Justbe aware, so that you can then educate yourself and and try to put yourself insomeone else's shoes so that you can understand umbut. I think I think what I would like to do. Movingforward, too, is is...

...simply ask like like what you just said issomething that I've I've I haven't considered, which is embarrassing forme to admit, because it seems so basic like that's something that youthink about every single day and- and I guess I just want to knowlike how I can be more aware without being offensive. Without I don't know it's it's just very hard to sit with myprivilege. Currently, you know when my heart is not is 't a happy. It's not a happy placeto be privileged, so it's hard to know how to deal with it d. Now it soundslike I'm making about myself. Is it not? It is just taking the information andlearning what to do with it. T riht, one hundred percent. I think when wehave those you know to steal overs like Aha moments like Oh, I never consideredthat. Well, then, you have to that's the uncomfortableness, it's likebeing okay sitting in feeling, like o crap, like what you know like Ho, you have to be OK, not being okay andnot knowing Um realizing like why. I never thought ofsomething like that. I think again, the privilege doesn't go away in the society it just it just is whatit is, and it's it's just acknowledge. I think part of what is missing when,in the larger discourses and th, I think were a lot of frustration. Liseis Wat black PBLACK andround people havewanted for. As long as I can remember from ahistorical context is acknowledgment of you know what things I didn't get it,but things are really like. Th Y, you were not like, like things are as badas you said, or I you know were not thinking like well c. She you know, if I say, if Itell you like, had a really crappy day. You know Um this, this copple meover and he was acomplete duch and he you know he pulled me out of the car or whatever whateverwhatever, and I you know never told me what I did wrong or something. If Icame Y. U with that with that whole scene, I said that and your first sideis like well, what did you do? You know, I think I think, there's a tendency not tobelieve people when things sound so terrible right, so it'slike, if you had like imagine if we hadn't,if we didn't have video of the George Wood situation, we didn't have video ofthe Amadarbury situation like if somebodyis telling you like. Oh mygosh, I just witnessed this. You know this cop was like had his knee on thisguy's neck, for like eight minutes to be. Like really, are you sure, like youknow, it's like the the the new jock reaction toquestion the authority of the personal color, I think happens alot, so I think acknowledgment is needed just off the jump of like Iunderstand now that that I have a privilege like that me asa white woman as much as as much as as women we can unite on. You know, like you know, nyeah not being treated fairly in theworkplace are not getting paid fairly. We can unite on that level, but like asmuch as I'm a feminist, and I want to...

...see change for women. A lot of black women get and women of Color getexcluded from those feminist conversations. We are an afterthoughtin those conversations, so I think it starts with. While you are female in this country,and that comes with its own, I wilt say their limitations, their own set ofrealities, Um. You also have the privilege of skincolor, and so I would say how do you use that, like I saw and pnd I'm notadvocating? This is what you or anybody else, Shoun do, but when you recognize the privilege, youunderstand that when people are warching or people areprotesting and white people stand in front of black people in between themand the cops that to me was a sign in that moment, like those peopleunderstood that, because that, because of their skin color, they weren't goingto be viewed as as much of a threat in thatmoment. Um, and so I think you, but you just have to think what I inyour, whether your community in your family with your friends like look atyour like your friend base. Look at I'm always struck by people. I was a psychmajor Undergrad, so social psychology is really important to me. I'm alwaysstruck by how people gravitate to what's familiar so that why you knowwhen I go to Um Women's conflences and sports or I go,and I you know I've been, you know: Undergrad Grad, school and a lot ofspaces, I'm the minority and even spaces where it's all women, women of color are the minority and andpeople. Sometimes some people know who I am, but ingeneral I find that white women don't approach, they don'tinitiate conversation M. I don't I don't know. I think I think I look fairly friendly. So amnot sure I mean I've approached you at some point, veer friendly tome. Youknow I thithat's. I think, because you know our friend base can sometimes looklike what we look like. I think there isn't a lot of of intermingling from a friendshipstandpoint. There isn't hey, I'm just gonta Yo know. I noticedthat I'm at this women's Conference and ninety nine percent of the people hereare white women like, and I see this one girl, like I'm, going to talk toher 'cause. This must be really uncomfortable for her. You knowrecognizing when you walk in a room. Does everybody look like you? You knowthe challenge for, and this isn't just I obviously as a sports writer at folkson Menfl and the sports landscape, but this is a challenge to newsroom. Thisis you know when you know, white male editors are looking around the roomexecutives at fortune, five hundred companies and they're. Looking aroundthe room and they're seeing men that only look like them, that's anopportunity to be Li, wow hlike. We should really you know diversity ofthought, diversity of gender diversity, of whether it's identity, politics orwhatever, like that's needed in Thi space, and I think so many people to bring about constructive change. Ithink it requires people to acknowledge that, whether it's their silence ortheir actions have contributed in some former fashionand that's really difficult for people a difficult place for people to get to,but I think that's a place. We all need to go before the change happened, yeah, absolutely and you're preachingto not only me but but so many people who...

...maybe haven't thought that they werethe problem because they think their heart is in the right place and nowthey're realizing that that's not enough to just sit back and be like. Well, I'm fine! Idon't I don't. I don't have Han in my heart. You know I'm right, I'm good,but but that is not enough, so you brought up that. You cover the NFLM as of today June second, which is whenwe're recording this only half of the thirty two teams in the League haveposted a statement about all this to social media. Some of them gavestatements others, along with their statements, aid that they're donatingmoney. You were on nflive on ESPN speaking about the League statement,and the point that you made was that Roger Gadel in the League as a wholeneed to get uncomfortable. We've been talking about this, the entire episodew they need to get uncomfortable and have more conversations about how tomake a change, there's so much that goes into this at in organ's organizational level. Sowhat do you think is the first step? What's the first step, the question I mean Agan, one of thethings I brought up on in Fel life today was the the issue of the you know. Statements are goodstatements are helpful to show that you're that you are backing your players or or playersand and on your respective teams, but you know talk the guys. I've talked tosome of the coaches. I've talked to. It will all feel like lip service if theLeague doesn't e Manifelin Sports Leagues in general, don't put resourcesand an time and actually constructe dialogue with their playslike if they don't put all that stuff into place. You know- and I thinkunfortunately, the NFL as I sat on today's show VNFL has an optics problem because of of Capene,you know so when they put statements out that say you know, everyone is isequal and we support people. Well, that's no different than what Catholicwas talking about. Yet he was essentially blackbaled byall thirty two teems. You know there are coaches who wanted to know theircoaches, who who wanted to give him a look, wanted to bring him in, wanted tosign him and it ultimately didn't happen. Thirty two teams said you knowwhat he's bad for our bottom line. So that is the optics problem for theLeague. How are you? How do you come back from from such a blatant disregard to the issues that W re that are at handtoday m and because, because what they did was they didn'twant to upset the President Goners? An nup the President Hew's talking aboutplayers, owners didn't want fans not showing upto games, but now it's four years later and the issues are still here so I think CNFL has to you know. I think the NF has to gget comfortable talking about racetalking about police because the players are talking about. Those arethe key words that players are using social injustice, racial andjustice,oppression, police, you know wace, and so, if the NFFOUL means once it wants their words to be takenat face value and for us to feel like okay, it's be teleagueas being genuineabout it. It can't just be like okay, whe're billionaires, we're going tothrow some money at such and such charities and call it a day, but we'renot going to be Oky with players voicing their feelings about protestswere we're. Not You know...

...we're not going to be happy. If aplayer decides to protest during the Anthom, you know like I, it gets into murky waters if, if guys, all of a sudden, let's sayweek, one half N, fl rosters, aside to Neel dring during the ENIALANTHOM againt, I'm not saying that would happen. But let's say that did now our ownersand the League Ginto say. Well, we don't support that. You know, I think you have to betransparent and I think the League has to be transparent about and understandwhy people don't believe this is more than lift service. Someplayers are incurred. Someplace think this is the n Flis Change and they'reshown a renewed commitment to being part of the change. I think time willtell, but if it's not, if it's not done honestly and from with a genuine from agenuine place, if you're still beholden to the bottom line, you will run into thesame problems that you ran into in twent. A sixteen, because whenconfronted with these very important issues that the world is talking about,manithel chose it's it's bottom line. The thing that I think about now isobviously calling cappernex actions. Are Being discussed a lot now? So howdo you think these recent events change the impact of players' voices movingforward? I see the thing that I mentioned on.The show was we're seeing more players cut ta, it feels like players arecoming out of the woodworks talking and expressing their opinions. Evensomebody like wookie? U Rookie's Joe Borough who's a number one draft pickhe hasn't played and ENA fell down. Yet he talked about black lives matter. Hetalked about m the oppression and he took hey for it from some people. Hewas applauded for using his platform, but then a lot of people said you justlost the fan. You just lost the follower. I think somebody you know like TomBrady, you know B Jilliant Eteman, like guys that you Curson Wen sackor itsGiye, that you don't typically see Um dipping into the political arena inrecent years. Now they feel comfortable, or at leastSAF felt comfortable enough to whether to touch their name to a letter, oh bythe players coalition, calling for a federal investigation into the death ofAmud Arbury, whether it's carsonwence and and got other prominent qbspointing out that enough is enough. They don't know they don't know theright words, but they hate seeing what's happening, and you know theywant a everybody to come together. I think that's been the interesting thingto me: H, the white player speaking out and speaking up and havingconversations with people round the League, the feeback I've gotten from some ofthem is sort of like they want to help. But again, don't know in what capacityI think, NFL players in general are conditioned to not voice their opinions.Bean, unlike a league like the NBA, where t seem like the League is Bmba Sen as a whole seemscomfortable with their players being individuals they sort of promote thatthey they want that. You have owners that are and had, coaches likepapavitch and steep car that speak out and supportod their players and speakout on their own and they completely dive into the political arena. The NFLis not like that, and it has never been like that H, so I think it it'll be interesting to seewhat happens when the season starts, but I think...

...cobed, nineteen keeping everybodyindoors ther the off season has been completelydisrupted for athletes and people are in front of their t vs, so there y youmight be at the facility in in quote Unquote Normal Times. Well now, you'reat home, now you're at home, with your family, now you're home with your kids.Your kids have questions about what they're seeing on T v 'CAUSE. He can'tescape it, and I think that's been the interesting thing now that we can'tescape these images. How do we feel and what do we do about it yep and we needto take it seriously. This is not just a social movement to show that yousupport on Social Media D, then you go about your normal ives. We truly needto look in the mirror and figure out what we can do. So I'm someone who tries to see thepositives in things and that's been really hard for me to do recently. ButI will say: I've found inspiration from the success of so many women in colorwho have front facing roles in this industry. Pamaliver, Misa, salters,sage, steel, Gary champion El Duncan Maria Taylor, I'm Jagosta you so manyothers, usually kimberlly. I end the show by asking to name a female insport that inspires you, but this time I want to end with you calling out anyand all women of color who inspire you or deserve recognition for their work.It does not have to be in sports, of course they can be, but I would lovefor you to name as many women as possible W we coul be here all day, so I willjust say Um for me: Jmaihills the goat. As far as me reading her columns me reading her when she first got to spn writing forpage to before she was ever a t, v Personality and would go on to be a bigtime celebrity. She was a writer and a colomnist and, as somebody WHO's, ablack woman who's had the opportunity to becolomist M at a couple ofdifferent places. I it's a small group, so um she to me. I has always sort ofbeen adminstiration 'cause she is Soshe is and she's always been this person another 'cause. Now I'm Atespan, I want ahighlight reatailor. I think she's incredible at her job to do the job aswell as she does to to be a helpful friend and force in the industry to bea positive force in the industry to not feel as ablack woman that this face. I must control it all like there's only roomfor one of us and that one is going to be me Um. I I just think she is just asweetheart of a person, but what makes me highlight her? I she's damned it ather job an she does. The work from I have two names non sports, sothese are in the political realm Ymichel Sindor, who is a White Housecorrespondent for a PBS news hour, and she also is a political contributor toN B C News and also Weja Jang, who is a White House correspondent for CBS News?I highlight those two women because I know them wig and I went to Syracusetogether. We got our masters at Syracuse, two thousand and six. She wasa broadcast Major. I was a magazine Major and it's awesome to see somebodyUm as smart in talented as her do the job and succeed and rise, and also me,she and I used to work at newseg together back in the day Um, and so Iwas there. I witnessed the beginning of her career. I think we bkind o wereearly in our career so to see her take...

...off and the reason I highlike them inparticular not just because I know them and have worked with them or been inthe same space as then is that they have gone tototo with the president. Asfar as- and I don't mean I like it, because they they they view things differently than thepresident. I mean it is a difficult job to ask questions when this subject that you're wooyou're asking Questionis to is either cutting you off or is Um. You know notletting you finish or is is making you to whatever degree feel uncomfortableor the room that you're in you feel uncomfortable n and I thinkthey have both of them have had to sort of stand. They grant in that moment andnot shrink when the world is watching and that's just a difficult. We've allhad not to compare the president to headcoaches or anything like that, butwe've had we've all had difficult interviews and in that moment, what doyou do? Do you do you? Do you kind of go inward and retreat,or do you J say like I have to take this? I'm going to ask my nestnextquestion and I think those those twolas are prime examples of how to do the job.Lihe Yeh. Thank you for highlighting all of those amazing women. They'redoing really important work can really. I want to thank you for joining me. Um.This conversation might be one of the most important episodes that I ever do.To be honest, I I want to thank you for being open and honest and Um. You haveinspired me. You've opened my eyes, and I just want you to know that I standwith you as as a friend as a colleague as a woman in sports and just a womanin general, and mostly just as a human being. So thank you so so much Oh, I appreciate you even wanting youwanting to do have this conversation. Um is important, so I appreciate youhaving meon, I think the most eye opening experiencefor me and that conversation was when Kimberley explained privilege. Thereare things that we cannot control like situations we're born into so the colorof our skin, who our parents are et Cetera. Those are privileges thatalmost force us to live in a bubble, and if we aren't aware that ourprivilege exists, we will never even consider what other people may befeeling or going through because of their circumstances, and that isexactly why these conversations need to be happening to open our eyes to revealbeliefs. We never even realized we're hindering us in our effort to supporteach other as human beings. I truly hope you feel inspired and prepared tohave real conversations about race and social injustice with people. You Trustpeople, you love and even strangers, who don't understand the magnitude ofwhat's happening in this country. I also want to highlight specificcharities to donate too. We mentioned some of these earlier. Please to yourresearch, find one that you feel compelled to give to. It doesn't haveto be one of these, but I'm going to help you get started. There's the blacklives matter foundation. George floord Memorial Fund, the Leveland Foundationcampaign zero, the players coalition. There's a Gofon me account for amadobery called Hashtag. I run with Maud there's also a Gophon mefor BrionaTaylor. There are local baile funds for multiple cities. You can sign the colorof change petition and you can donate to the NABJ, which is the NationalAssociation of Black Journalists. They help promote diversity in news roomsall over the country. I hope you find a way to use your voice for the betterand to create much needed change. Love you all. Thank you for listening.

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